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Nitro vs Spicer Ring and Pinion Gear Discussion and 4.10 install

52K views 194 replies 21 participants last post by  Kal  
#1 · (Edited)
I am going to do a final drive ratio gear change to 4.10 and have been reading up on the two suppliers and results that others have had.

Quite a few comments on various forums about the Nitro gears being noisy, but also comments that it is all in proper setup not the fault of the ring and pinion quality.

I ended up ordering both Nitro and Spicer (labeled made in USA) ring and pinion sets.

Visually they both look very good as far as tooth finish, etc (of course visual does not tell you anything about actual heat treat and strength or fabrication tolerances)

The Spicer part number 2017552 is the 4.10 ratio for the "M190" Front Differential (apparently requires ring gear spacer)

The Spicer part number 10004299 is the 4.10 ratio for the "M220" Rear Differential

The Nitro part number is D32-410T-NG for the "Dana 32" Front Differential (this new design is thicker and does not require ring gear spacer)

The Nitro part number is D46-410-NG for the "Dana 46" Rear differential

So the odd thing and reason for title is that the tooth (pitch) angle is very different between the Nitro and Spicer (see photo). From what I can find this theoretically has no effect on efficiency or strength, but does affect bearing thrust under power. I am wondering if this could also affect potential for gear noise.

SPICER RING GEAR ON LEFT NITRO RING GEAR ON RIGHT

Image
 
#2 ·
The closer you get a spur gear the less axial load for sure. I’m in the camp that thinks spur gears are the way to go.

It definitely causes gear noise to have spur gears or gears similar in design.

My Colorado transfer case uses spur gears for low range and they have an old school gear whine when engaged.

My experience is unfortunately limited to transfer case builds.

Interesting thread. 👍🏻
 
#3 ·
I’m interested in your and other’s thoughts on this. I have a ‘21 Bison and I’m looking into the AEV upfit, which I believe uses Nitro 4.10s. The quality that is associated with AEV indicates to me they have confidence in Nitro products, not to mention expertise in installation. I’ve gone back and forth in my build list between Nitro and Spicer, but I’m holding out as I do more research. I do think you’re onto something pondering installation, lots of threads here and elsewhere drawing conclusions (or trying to) without asking more questions. Appreciate you looking into and sharing this!


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#6 ·
A little birdie (humor) told me AEV uses Dana/Spicer for the back diff gearing, but that only Nitro makes front diff gears for the ZR2/Bison (preceding sentence applies only to ZR2 front & back diff's - though there may be similiarities that little birdie was speaking in context of the ZR2 diff's only). That same birdie is pursing further in-depth conversations (a local shop that does off road gear upgrades exclusively is investigating and acquiring parts for this upgrade).

Film at 11 (idiom - meaning more information later)
 
#4 ·
FWIW East Coast Gear Supply prefers the Spicer gears over Nitro. Also a very reputable company who does really nothing but regearing. Sold me on Spicer... now I just need to save up $3k for 4.10s
 
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#7 · (Edited)
The M190 front that Spicer makes the 4.10’s for IS compatible with our M200. They are are direct fit, I run them. Absolutely no noise from my spicer. My nitros started off noisy and only got worse before failure. Now speculation says that nitros kits have gone down hill in quality since COVID and supply shortages. I doubt the actual gears will fail you. The components… different story. When I was looking to get my re-gear done. Two very well known shops wouldn’t touch the Nitros for install. Now I ponder that often knowing I’m n my 2nd set of gears.


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#12 · (Edited)
The M190 front that Spicer makes the 4.10’s for IS compatible with our M200. They are are direct fit, I run them. Absolutely no noise from my spicer. My nitros started off noisy and only got worse before failure. Now speculation says that nitros kits have gone down hill in quality since COVID and supply shortages. I doubt the actual gears will fail you. The components… different story. When I was looking to get my re-gear done. Two very well known shops wouldn’t touch the Nitros for install. Now I ponder that often knowing I’m n my 2nd set of gears.


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Did you have to run a ring gear spacer with the Spicer "M190" front ? Reason I ask is that the Nitro Ring Gear is much thicker now to eliminate the spacer.

Spicer on the Left Nitro on the Right

Image
 
#15 ·
My plan right now unless I get information convincing me otherwise is to go to the Spicer in the rear on the chance they are quieter based on opinions and experience posted on various forums, and the Nitro in the front based on not having to use a ring gear spacer as I currently understand it. Going to be giving both sets to my installer in case he has other strong opinions.

Here is some propaganda promotional literature on Spicer https://d3qx1uccksbb2n.cloudfront.net/docs/perf-geartest-102018.pdf
 
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#18 · (Edited)
Here is one of the better discussions on Hypoid Gears I have run across. Hypoid Gear - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Another thing I found was discussions on why the Ford "9 inch" which is the basis for a lot of very high HP builds is not the best choice for many applications because it robs another 5% of power over the GM 12 bolt for example.

If I was building something with very high HP I think I would go with Strange Engineering
 
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#19 ·
bearing thrust under power.
I found this article about load bolts to be interesting. It’s regarding deflection but I think it would also introduce stress on the bearings.

 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm looking at doing the 4.10 gear swap myself. I've sent out emails to 3 shops and visited a fourth and still no confirmations on anything after a week. 4WP sells the Dana gears but not the install kits. I've also may have complicated it by swapping in a ZR2 front axle. I checked the ECGS website but couldn't find any of the parts listed. I was thinking about getting the rear E-Locker but saw a UTube video where it recommended a front e-locker and a rear automatic one...
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm looking at doing the 4.10 gear swap myself. I've sent out emails to 3 shops and visited a fourth and still no confirmations on anything after a week. 4WP sells the Dana gears but not the install kits. I've also may have complicated it by swapping in a ZR2 front axle. I checked the ECGS website but couldn't find any of the parts listed. I was thinking about getting the rear E-Locker but saw a UTube video where it recommended a front e-locker and a rear automatic one...
Regarding the ZR2 front axle, my understanding is the ring and pinion are identical on all current generation Canyon/Colorado 4WD. What I have not figured out is how to find the Dana/Spicer install kits that would include the ring gear spacer that I think is necessary with the front Spicer ring gear.

Regarding lockers I think it depends on how you use your truck. Serious off road use the e-locker makes a lot of sense. For me with no serious offroad use, but trailer pulling in wet weather and occasional dirt and muddy roads for camping, the G80 works fine and the automatic engagement makes more sense. Have pondered getting a front e-locker for the occasional slippery forest service road and getting to a campsite, but if it is bad enough to need it probably shouldn't be taking my trailer there anyway.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Does anyone have the part number for the front Spicer Ring Gear Spacer? I've tried to find some of this stuff on the web but it can be challenging... I found it made by Nitro Gear but I'd prefer to go with Spicer. Its the same with the installation kits. I cant find them either for Spicer, Nitro is all over the place... I'm trying to put it all together so It will be a a lot easier to find a shop for the installation.
 
#24 ·
I am going through this process right now. The truck is literally in pieces. The dana gear is thinner and requires a new carrier or a spacer. I spoke to dana tech support just now. They do not offer a carrier or a spacer at this time. If anyone finds and additional info, I would greatly appreciate it.


Are the diffs in the 2.5l Colorados the the same as the 3.6l and 2.8l? If so, i wonder if the 4.10 carrier from there would work?
 
#25 ·
If anyone finds and additional info, I would greatly appreciate it.

Are the diffs in the 2.5l Colorados the the same as the 3.6l and 2.8l? If so, i wonder if the 4.10 carrier from there would work?
I have Dana part numbers, but have been trying to get some talk time with a buddy who is in the process of regearing (waiting on parts). Want to confirm several things he and I had discussed before posting so as not to give incorrect information.

Re your question - everything I have read is that the 2.5L Colorado differential is not the same.
 
#27 ·
I got some more info from calling around to various gear supply places, dana tech support, and AEV.
There is for sure no carrier available for the e-locker at this time.
You can get a custom spacer machined or you can try an aftermarket one from another brand. Although Spicer did frown upon the idea of using a spacer.
You can run the Spicer rear and a Nitro front. I reached out to AEV and they confirmed that is the combo they run on their upfit kits.
 
#28 ·
I got some more info from calling around to various gear supply places, dana tech support, and AEV.
There is for sure no carrier available for the e-locker at this time.
You can get a custom spacer machined or you can try an aftermarket one from another brand. Although Spicer did frown upon the idea of using a spacer.
You can run the Spicer rear and a Nitro front. I reached out to AEV and they confirmed that is the combo they run on their upfit kits.
That is the same information I’ve received also.
 
#29 ·
Well I ordered the front and rear Dana Gears this morning and the spacer. I guess I may return the front gear and spacer if that’s not a recommended setup.
 
#34 ·
My Dana Front and Rear 4.10 Gears will show up tomorrow. I canceled the order for the ring gear spacer for the front and just ordered the thick 4.10 front gear from nitro. I'll return the Dana front gears and order the master install kits from ECGS. I've heard they are much better than the Nitro gear kits... Now just to make up my mind on the rear E-Locker. Leaning towards it as this is the time to do it...

Everyone here has been great with getting me the information to do this the best way possible. Thanks!!!
 
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#35 ·
Quick question because I may end up doing this in stages… Is the transfer case a sealed case, where I can pull the front driveshaft and not have it leak? I may get the rear done while I’m on orders in VA and do the front when I get home. I have to swap the springs on my front struts because when I got the Fox coil overs they came with 500# springs and I need 650# springs.
 
#36 ·
The front propshaft is attached with 6 bolts at each end. Just make sure that you mark the location at each end on the flanges before removing so you can match that up when reinstalling, nothing would be opened up as far as seals. Is your concern that you might accidentally engage 4WD with different gear ratios front and rear (which would be "bad") ? I guess you could go ahead with that plan unless someone else can think of a concern from doing it in 2 stages.
 
#37 ·
That's the plan. Remove the front driveshaft so there is no chance at all that 4WD can engage. I was just going to pull some fuses or relays but then the DIC would show alerts. I have to pull the front driveshaft anyway when I get the front done so why not. I ordered the rear E-Locker last night, figured I may regret it if I didn't and now is the time to do it. Still haven't heard from any of the shops I emailed in the Hampton/Virginia Beach area. I'll make some phone calls and see what's up.
 
#39 ·
ECGS sells the Yukon master install kits. From my emails with them they are more complete than the Nitro kits. The Nitro kits do not have the crush washers but the Yukons do. I plan on ordering a front and rear kit from them later today.
 
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#40 ·
The crush sleeves were included in my Nitro install kits. I did purchase extra crush sleeves and OEM differential cover gaskets (no gaskets included). Main thing I noticed was the Nitro kits don't include as many shims as they used to, or ring gear bolts.
 
#41 ·
It didn't list the crush sleeves, and I've read of people having to order them during the install process so I went with ECGS's Yukon kit. If Nitro Gear are including them now that's great because the crush sleeves go for about $20 each.


Tech Note:
Use with D32-456-NG Front Reverse M200 Ring & Pinion

Kit Contents:
Pinion Bearing & Race x2
Carrier Bearing & Race x2
Stub Axle Bearing x1
Pinion Seal x1
Pinion Shims
Pinion Nut x1
Pinion Preload Shims
Carrier Shims
Silicone Sealant x1
Marking Compound x1
Brush x1
Loctite x1

The kits assembled by Nitro Gear & Axle only use the highest quality bearings available from Timken & Koyo. Nitro Gear & Axle does not use any cheap Chinese bearings. By using only Timken & Koyo bearings just like all of the OEM vehicle manufacturers you can be assured that your differential will be reliable, durable, & quiet for years to come.
 
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#59 ·
It didn't list the crush sleeves, and I've read of people having to order them during the install process so I went with ECGS's Yukon kit. If Nitro Gear are including them now that's great because the crush sleeves go for about $20 each.
Sooo, on the subject of crush sleeves, these effing things are a real bear to compress!

I finally got everything dialed in and was doing a final install with an uncompressed crush sleeve, and even using pipe extensions on long breaker bars I cannot get the firigging thing to compress. I have heavy 3/4" drive on order as my long 1/2" drive bars just flex without being able to provide enough torque. Been searching online and seen reference that it can take 1200 ft-lbs to compress it using the pinion nut. Really worried I would strip the threads, but apparently that is normal.

I can't find a "crush sleeve eliminator" for the Dana M220 as the pinion shaft diameter is much larger than the conventional Dana 44, but the length is different than the Dana 70. If anyone knows of a source that would be great.
 
#43 ·
Yep they put the crush sleeves in it. That's good to know.
 
#44 · (Edited)
I also ordered extra crush sleeves from GM, along with new cover gaskets (OEM since they don't require sealer).

I did have a question for anyone who has the ring and pinion set(s) in hand right now. I expected to see markings on the face of the pinion indicating starting point of shims relative to the old pinion. These would be like +3 or +2 or 0 for example. I don't see any markings like that on either the DANA/Spicer or the Nitro I have. Do yours have that?
 
#45 · (Edited)
So the eLocker showed up today and I may have a problem. The Dana 4.10 Ring gear wont fit on it. After looking at some other photos here on the site it look's like the 4.10 gear is a little bit thicker than the 3.42 gears. Does anyone have confirmed part numbers that work? Or is this normal? There's quite a gap between the gear and the bottom of the carrier is this a press fit?

This is a stock ZR2
Image


Image
Image
 
#47 ·
So the eLocker showed up today and I may have a problem. The Dana 4.10 Ring gear wont fit on it. After looking at some other photos here on the site it look's like the 4.10 gear is a little bit thicker than the 3.42 gears. Does anyone have confirmed part numbers that work? Or is this normal? There's quite a gap between the gear and the bottom of the carrier is this a press fit?
It should be "a little bit thicker" because the pinion diameter is smaller so the ring gear needs to move towards the pinion center line. If you see the really high numerical gears th epinion diameters are really small in comparison which as you would imagine makes them more prone to breakage.

The fit should be pretty snug, but should be drawn together by even tightening of the ring gear bolts, making sure the gap is equal all around as you tighten. I would plan on using temporary alignment studs (12mmx1.25 studs) to ensure it is aligned perfectly with the bolt holes.

BTW I guess it is pretty common for pinions to not have marking on the face to help with shim selection. I plan on buying or making a set of assembly bearings that would be a slip fit on the pinion for shim selection. Then once pinion depth is dialed in press on the actual bearing assemblies.
 
#48 ·
Ok I feel better hearing that. Snug like put one in the oven and the other in the freezer? I might have a dial caliper at work that I can use to measure the tolerances, definitely not a drop in fit and I couldn’t find anyone talking about pressing it on.

Thanks
 
#49 · (Edited)
Ok I feel better hearing that. Snug like put one in the oven and the other in the freezer? I might have a dial caliper at work that I can use to measure the tolerances, definitely not a drop in fit and I couldn’t find anyone talking about pressing it on.
Thanks
This is what the GM shop manual says
"Tighten the new ring gear bolts alternately and in stages, gradually pulling the ring gear onto the differential case. Tighten the ring gear bolts in sequence to 170 Nm (126 lb ft)".

Although it refers to "new" ring gear bolts, I believe most reuse the ring gear bolts. I am using new carrier bearing cap bolts however.
 
#50 ·
Wanted to mention that for anyone with an affected model (through mid 2019) should check for this condition. Even if it was not causing noise I would not want to reassemble with this condition. Could be covered under warranty, but need to have the dealer disassemble to confirm condition, so that gets tricky if it is not making noise.
 
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#52 ·
This one?
 
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#55 ·
Started on the gear swap. Got the differential out this morning. Pattern looks good as you would expect for factory setup. The backlash was a bit higher than expected ranging from 0.010" - 0.011" around the gear. GM specs 0.003-0.006 so that seems like it opened up a bit more than I would expect from break-in (other suppliers specify more initial backlash). Getting the axles pushed in and C-clips out was a lot more fiddly than I remembered from last GM differential I worked on, maybe the G80 is a little different in that area than the posi unit I last worked on.
 
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