ZR2 Winter Tires

hand foot maneuver · Aug 28, 2018

Ive lived in Tahoe for 25 years and used all manner of snow tire and AT tire. If youre wanting reliable snow traction, you cant go wrong with proper snow tires. Blizzaks are good, but others have closed the gap. Personally I gave up on blizzak several years ago, and since have been pleased with the General Grabber arctic and the goodyear ultragrip. They are great in the snow and low temps and wear and feel so much better in the dry than the blizzak.

Also running the grabber arctics year round and they are far and away better in every situation than the stock goodyears, winter and summer.

AS tires do better in winter than AT generally, something that is tested but not always accepted as true.

Blizzaks do work well, but usually the best part of the winter compound is only at the first quarter or third of the tread. They are also notoriously soft even for a snow tire. Nokians are excellent but others do just about as well for less.

Owyhee H · Aug 31, 2018

lurchskii said:
Not sure why you would change to a winter tire. I ran my ZR2 with the stock Duratrac tires in snow several times driving up to Mt Hood and Bend Oregon Last December just shift into 4 Hi ,off road mode, lock in rear lockers and go. no problem.
I changed to Falkens wildpeaks and drove through through Northern Nevada and Southern Oregon in snow and icy roads, same set up this past February no issues. Most roads in the Northwest are treated sparingly with deicers.

Lockers are not your friend in normal snow driving. In deep snow or off-road they can help but on road you only want one tire per axle driving. When there is power being applied to one tire, the other tire is "tracking" and keeping you from sliding off the road. If you lock in the lockers and are accelerating there is no "tracking" and you are more likely to lose control of that end of the vehicle.

Nothing beats a dedicated snow tire. I run BFG AT KO and they are ok snow tires and great AT tire but cant compete with real dedicated snows. OP, if you feel the need for snow tires, I think your plan is great.

hand foot maneuver · Sep 1, 2018

Doesnt matter if you have ten wheel drive if your tires arent proper. Even a low end snow tire is better if you see frequent snow or winter conditions. Everything else is gambling. Just takes one moron to lose it near you to remind you how little traction you have.

For the OP, Id recommend looking into the general grabber arctic and goodyear ultragrip before throwing down on the new blizzaks, even though they finally updated the LT and the P is new too. Unless youre throwing down on nokians, theyre worth a serious look. They all come in P or LT rated (E). After 5 models of blizzak, I figured out that heavy snow and full winter conditions are the only places they shine, and only while you have the full tread and the good winter compound. It goes to A/S compound 1/3-1/2 way through. You def have to take them off when winter is over. Not so much the case with the General and the Goodyear. They perform just as well in the full blown winter, but dont suck as bad in the dry and are very driveable year round. Compound is the same all the way through and wear is good on both, much better wear than the blizzak.

Just gotta decide on a priority. Deep snow, ice, slop, or all of the above.

Heres some recommendations from many years of snow tire use, 25 years in Tahoe/Truckee, summit gets up to 950" of dump. All snow conditions, some ice but not a lot. Slop all over the place. Lots of dry, low temps in between, down to -teens at times. Ive used Nokians, many Blizzaks from Revo1 to WS80, Generals, Goodyears, and cheapies. Michelins arent as suited to our conditions, more toward icy midwest and east and CDN. Havent used studs in 18 years. Subarus and trucks.

Deep snow: Nokian or Blizzak followed by General and Goodyear, no slouches here.
Ice: Nokian, blizzak, michelin XI3. The G's do well but do get beaten here.
Slop: Blizzak and michelin last, others first. Nothing really does well in slop consistently, area specific of course.
All of the above: Nokian, General or Goodyear all the way.
Occasional or weekend to the ski hill use: Anything is better than OEM, but Id go with one of the G's or even cheapies.

hand foot maneuver · Sep 1, 2018

As far as width, youre unlikely to notice much of any difference, stock is fine, narrower is fine. As long as the OD matches up with what is on there, you can get any width you want. Definitely wouldnt go wider.

hand foot maneuver · Sep 1, 2018

A great tutorial from the Subaru forums, then the mega thread of nonsense, but good info in first posts:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1608459

4x4'nOLDDUDE · Sep 3, 2018

I had 35" Duratrac's on my 04' Wrangler and loved them for snow. I feel the same way about these on our ZR2, the tread pattern and side lug/grippers work extremely well on our sometimes un-plowed, snow covered roads here in Wisc. They even work fairly well on icy conditions but a more passenger car/street tread pattern would probably work much better in those conditions. OLDDUDE:smile2:

Tom S. · Sep 3, 2018

hand foot maneuver said:
As far as width, youre unlikely to notice much of any difference, stock is fine, narrower is fine. As long as the OD matches up with what is on there, you can get any width you want. Definitely wouldnt go wider.

The width was a secondary issue. While a narrower tire does provide better traction, I doubt the difference between the two sizes would be noticeable. What was noticeable was the price difference - $30+ cheaper for each tire. :wink2:

Jazzard · Sep 4, 2018

Just as an aside, I’ve read that the secret to snow traction is partly rubber compound but mostly the thin sipes molded into the tread blocks. Tread pattern is almost negligible. Those sipes load up with unmelted snow, and it’s the snow-on-snow friction between tire and surface that provides the traction. I wonder if that holds true for slush, which is about all we get here in Maryland anymore.

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed that the A/T tires with better snow ratings seem to have more sipes. Of course the sipes in A/T and highway tires don’t run through the bottom of the tread blocks, so as the tires wear, they lose sipes—and winter traction.

G2SKIER · Sep 4, 2018

For on road...I’d definitely recommend a purpose built snow tire.

That being said...I go off road very often and the snow doesn’t stop me. There is nothing that can beat an aggressive mud tire in off pavement winter conditions. Big tread voids and wide footprint combined with wheel speed are the only things that make moving in multiple feet of snow doable. Knowing how to drive on road is a major part of mud tires in the winter.

Try looking at the the discoverer a/tw or the discoverer m+s. They’re dedicated snow tires for trucks. I have experience running both and they’ll work well on road yet won’t wear out as fast as the blizzak type tires.

Here’s my 35x12.5 falkens chewing up the white stuff. They run wide, and aired down, the footprint is over 15” wide.

Now here we have both axles pushing heavy snow and the front bumper acting like a boat. Lost a little speed and had to bring the tractor out to the rescue. Broke through the crust that was 12-18” deep with another 2’ underneath of that.

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F8LZ71 · Sep 4, 2018

Jazzard said:
Just as an aside, I’ve read that the secret to snow traction is partly rubber compound but mostly the thin sipes molded into the tread blocks. Tread pattern is almost negligible. Those sipes load up with unmelted snow, and it’s the snow-on-snow friction between tire and surface that provides the traction. I wonder if that holds true for slush, which is about all we get here in Maryland anymore.

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed that the A/T tires with better snow ratings seem to have more sipes. Of course the sipes in A/T and highway tires don’t run through the bottom of the tread blocks, so as the tires wear, they lose sipes—and winter traction.

Are you sure about that? Tires like the Wildpeak A/T3W, Grabber X3 and Duratrac state the sipes are full depth with some like the Geolandar AT G015 using 3D sipes.

Zillon · Sep 4, 2018

F8LZ71 said:
Are you sure about that? Tires like the Wildpeak A/T3W, Grabber X3 and Duratrac state the sipes are full depth with some like the Geolandar AT G015 using 3D sipes.

The AT3W sipes are not full depth on every tread block.

F8LZ71 · Sep 4, 2018

Zillon said:
The AT3W sipes are not full depth on every tread block.

Thanks! I've been trying to find this information but manufacturer websites don't like to list such things.

Zillon · Sep 4, 2018

F8LZ71 said:
Thanks! I've been trying to find this information but manufacturer websites don't like to list such things.

hand foot maneuver · Sep 4, 2018

Mud tires are all sorts of wrong for snow. The compound is not geared remotely for cold and despite 'aggressive' tread looks, they are the wrong tool for the job. Ive been moving through multiple feet of snow for over 20 years and just like on-road, snow tires are superior. The appearance of the tread has very little to do with traction, its the makeup of the compound, biting edges, and effectively placed sipes that do it. AT tires are not dedicated snow tires, they are AT M+S tires that lean a little toward snow, enough to get the severe snow service rating, which still pales in comparison to an actual snow tire.

AS tires rank better than AT in snow in most every test, by a slight margin.

That said, nothing will keep you from getting mired in multiple feet of snow reliably, especially when you dive into it purposefully. You can get away with stuff, but you cant be as reliant on it.

Blizzak is not the only snow tire design out there, it has its downfalls andwear is one of the major ones. Lots of snow tires available that dont wear like that and follow different engineering. If you want snow tires, get actual snow tires. Theres lots of confusing terms and conflicting info out there combined with peoples opinions. They figured this stuff out a long old time ago.

G2SKIER said:
For on road...I’d definitely recommend a purpose built snow tire.

That being said...I go off road very often and the snow doesn’t stop me. There is nothing that can beat an aggressive mud tire in off pavement winter conditions. Big tread voids and wide footprint combined with wheel speed are the only things that make moving in multiple feet of snow doable. Knowing how to drive on road is a major part of mud tires in the winter.

Try looking at the the discoverer a/tw or the discoverer m+s. They’re dedicated snow tires for trucks. I have experience running both and they’ll work well on road yet won’t wear out as fast as the blizzak type tires.

Here’s my 35x12.5 falkens chewing up the white stuff. They run wide, and aired down, the footprint is over 15” wide.

Now here we have both axles pushing heavy snow and the front bumper acting like a boat. Lost a little speed and had to bring the tractor out to the rescue. Broke through the crust that was 12-18” deep with another 2’ underneath of that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hand foot maneuver · Sep 4, 2018

Marketing/nomenclature alone is a major source of confusion on the snow tire subject. It starts at the manufacturer.

G2SKIER · Sep 4, 2018

hand foot maneuver said:
Mud tires are all sorts of wrong for snow. The compound is not geared remotely for cold and despite 'aggressive' tread looks, they are the wrong tool for the job. Ive been moving through multiple feet of snow for over 20 years and just like on-road, snow tires are superior. The appearance of the tread has very little to do with traction, its the makeup of the compound, biting edges, and effectively placed sipes that do it. AT tires are not dedicated snow tires, they are AT M+S tires that lean a little toward snow, enough to get the severe snow service rating, which still pales in comparison to an actual snow tire.

AS tires rank better than AT in snow in most every test, by a slight margin.

That said, nothing will keep you from getting mired in multiple feet of snow reliably, especially when you dive into it purposefully. You can get away with stuff, but you cant be as reliant on it.

Blizzak is not the only snow tire design out there, it has its downfalls andwear is one of the major ones. Lots of snow tires available that dont wear like that and follow different engineering. If you want snow tires, get actual snow tires. Theres lots of confusing terms and conflicting info out there combined with peoples opinions. They figured this stuff out a long old time ago.

I bought my truck with the ZR2 package to “purposefully” go offroad. That’s the whole point. You go ahead with your skinny short tires with me in a snow excursion and I’ll take my wide flotation like tires that act as a paddle in the snow with the large and deep tread voids. I’ll go further every single time. It’s simple physics in weight distribution. Why do snow machines have wider and longer tracks with deeper paddles? It’s been proven over and over that unless you can reach the bottom, flotation is the best bet.

This isn’t the 70s anymore. Any modern tire has to meet nationally set specs for tread compound to be marketed with even the M+S rating.

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rkj__ · Sep 4, 2018

hand foot maneuver said:
Mud tires are all sorts of wrong for snow. The compound is not geared remotely for cold and despite 'aggressive' tread looks, they are the wrong tool for the job. Ive been moving through multiple feet of snow for over 20 years and just like on-road, snow tires are superior. The appearance of the tread has very little to do with traction, its the makeup of the compound, biting edges, and effectively placed sipes that do it. AT tires are not dedicated snow tires, they are AT M+S tires that lean a little toward snow, enough to get the severe snow service rating, which still pales in comparison to an actual snow tire.

I suspect the "mud tires are best for snowy winter off road conditions" may be a misconception. Personally, I never have, and maybe never will have mud tires, so I can't do any testing myself. I don't have much interest in taking a truck on tough off road trails in the winter either, since an icy slope very easily leads to body damage, or danger.

I've tried to do some reading on the subject, and any article written by an industry journalist seems to conclude that mud tires finish last in every category of winter driving, even "deep snow."

The lack of availability of 35"+ snow tires, as well as cost, sidewall construction, appearance, and other factors seem to steer off roaders from adopting snow tires in the winter for off road use.

G2SKIER · Sep 4, 2018

rkj__ said:
I suspect the "mud tires are best for snowy winter off road conditions" may be a misconception. Personally, I never have, and maybe never will have mud tires, so I can't do any testing myself. I don't have much interest in taking a truck on tough off road trails in the winter either, since an icy slope very easily leads to body damage, or danger.

I've tried to do some reading on the subject, and any article written by an industry journalist seems to conclude that mud tires finish last in every category of winter driving, even "deep snow."

The lack of availability of 35"+ snow tires, as well as cost, sidewall construction, appearance, and other factors seem to steer off roaders from adopting snow tires in the winter for off road use.

“Personally, I never have, and maybe never will have mud tires, so I can't do any testing myself. I don't have much interest in taking a truck on tough off road trails in the winter either”

In my mind, this disqualifies you to have an accurate opinion on the matter.

That being said, the “deep snow” testing they do is usually a foot or less of powder on a packed snow road. A front wheel drive car can push through that with some good snow tires.

I know as a fact that anyone who does actual snow wheeling will be running mud tires or aggressive all terrain tires in a wide size. They simply don’t make the dedicated snow tires in a size to accommodate the big trail rigs that go play in the snow. There’s not a market for them because these people buy wide mud tires to float and paddle through the deep stuff.

Am I saying they’re good on road? Absolutely not. That being said, to say they’re not optimal for snow wheeling is just incorrect.

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Zillon · Sep 4, 2018

I think these guys know what they're doing, and I don't see any mud tires.

rkj__ · Sep 4, 2018

G2SKIER said:
“Personally, I never have, and maybe never will have mud tires, so I can't do any testing myself. I don't have much interest in taking a truck on tough off road trails in the winter either”

In my mind, this disqualifies you to have an accurate opinion on the matter.

Exactly. I tried to be pretty clear by stating my lack of experience, and presenting my suspicions simply as suspicions, not facts. I am curious though, and am very interested to read the responses and experiences of others.

ZR2 Winter Tires

hand foot maneuver

Owyhee H

hand foot maneuver

hand foot maneuver

hand foot maneuver

4x4'nOLDDUDE

Tom S.

Jazzard

G2SKIER

F8LZ71

Zillon

F8LZ71

Zillon

hand foot maneuver

hand foot maneuver

G2SKIER

rkj__

G2SKIER

Zillon

rkj__

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