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Just a note, GM didn’t license nor sell their EV technology to Honda for the two EV vehicles for Honda that was announced, GM is building those two vehicles for Honda at GM factories and Honda is only designing the exterior and interior. Those two Honda vehicles will have GM VINs.
No that one was a partnership. But the potential is there to make a number of different deals with a number of different MFGs that can not foot the bill alone.

GM. could also assume an advisor roll too such as Porsche engineering has for a number of companies including GM.
 

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This one apparently has the electric motor between the engine and transmission, so it's a standard transmission
Ya, the Lincoln is using the 10 speed automatic. I suspect that is why Car & Driver commented on the power train's "refinement isn't quite up to snuff, with occasional thunks when the driveline reengages the gas engine". Sounds like they took the "quick and dirty" way out, and wedged an electric motor in between the trans and the gas engine. It would be difficult to make that kind of system feel seamless. In a true eCVT, power between the batteries and internal combustion sources is seamlessly blended electrically and run through the electric motor instead of mechanically through the transmission as is done in the Lincoln.

Driving my wife's eCVT car is interesting - the engine revs according to the load on the car, not road speed. One can be driving along at 80 mph with a tail wind or slight downgrade, and the engine is either barely running or it may even be in full EV mode. The engine stops/starts and revs as needed, the software figures it all out and it is almost unnoticeably seamless.

Unless one calls for a lot of acceleration or is going up a pretty steep hill, the engine is not audible as it is not revving unusually high. Put a big load on it and the car does the constant high rev "CVT drone" which is efficient, but annoying. In normal driving it does not do that. A 118 HP electric motor powered by a high voltage battery has no problem bumping the 2 liter gas engine to life. There are no "speeds" in the conventional sense. The car easily breaks 50 MPG on the highway at 70-75 MPH. Thin high elevation Colorado air helps I suppose.

I wonder if an eCVT can be made beefy enough to be translated to truck duty with, say, a 250 HP electric motor paired with a 300 plus HP gas engine/generator to power it along with the battery. If so, it could really bump a pickup truck's overall efficiency and it could pull like a moose. Such a system would require some seriously manly electrical cables and a good sized battery, probably 30 kWh or so. Truck enthusiasts likely would have a hard time accepting an eCVT as gearheads tend to dislike CVTs of any kind, and such a package would be very expensive. It is not hard to argue that one could simply avoid a lot of expensive complexity, buy a lot of fuel and drive a simple naturally aspirated V8 instead with the savings :LOL:

In the here and now, I am thrilled with my Canyon's fuel efficiency. The truck gets used on the highway a lot, where it shines at it's best, easily returning more than 30 MPG and operating in a relaxed way with torque for days. What an awesome highway cruiser the 2.8 is.
 
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Discussion Starter #64
Agree. Regardless, removing and installing battery packs and supplemental cooling system during recharge should also then be figured into the total energy use equation.
That's the biggest problem I have with any EV technology. Are all the costs really being included in the making and use of the vehicle or are some just ignored or put on the side to be dealt with latter . . . "some day" or for someone else?
On a positive note, EVs likely need less routine maintenance, so poor maintenance isn't as likely to shorten a vehicle's life. Also I would assume a new motor would be a lot less expensive to buy and install than a new engine.

Extending the average life of vehicles would do a lot toward reducing their overall environmental cost.
 

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I would agree with that, but this thread was at one point about towing. It will be a long time, if ever, before EVs work well for towing travel trailers distances or into remote areas (or for big rigs as mentioned above).

When I was looking in early 2019 to buy a truck I did look at the Ram mild hybrid eTorque engines, and quite frankly didn't see the point. Thinking about this Ford Hybrid system, I think it would be more interesting paired to their 2.7 turbo and combined with a larger battery for camping power. But then I'm not interested in towing 10,000+ pounds because I wouldn't do that with a half-ton pickup, so the 2.7 turbo engine would do, supplemented by the electric motor for additional power accelerating. .
Many a pessimistic curmudgeon thought 400 miles range would never be met or battery prices under 100/kWH would be possible. Now both have been realized and expected to not improve. The changes and improvements are coming even faster and will continue to do so. It already has surpassed anything I expected to this point so I no longer count out anything.

Tesla now offers 100 miles in 7 min so we are seeing big gains already. I think they advertise 80% at 30 min now.

I have seen they are looking into transmissions now for electrics that can help manage torque and expand range.

The battery change thing was looked at and has been rejected even by Tesla who had started doing it. Just not practical. You can get an 80% charge now in close to 39 min.

As for pick up towing regulations are much lower on 3/4 and up trucks. I expect them to remain and replace. Much of the half ton towing.

Semi trucks are looking to electric but I could see fuel cells working there too. But I don’t expect the regular diesel semi to be gone in the near future.

Most investment now is on cars and light vehicles so it may be a while longer for heavy towing to see gains. I just don’t see a long life for Hybrid tech outside companies that can’t afford a full electric program. Most that can foot the Bill are just making the jump to EV.

GM has not spoken on this so it will be interesting to see w hat they do have in the works.

I find if interesting to watch as these are historic times in the auto field.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Ya, the Lincoln is using the 10 speed automatic. I suspect that is why Car & Driver commented on the power train's "refinement isn't quite up to snuff, with occasional thunks when the driveline reengages the gas engine". Sounds like they took the "quick and dirty" way out, and wedged an electric motor in between the trans and the gas engine.
But didn't they also try to have it operate on battery only at times with that setup? That also sounds problematic compared to just having the electric motor being a supplement that could kick in for additional power (or regenerative braking).
 

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On a positive note, EVs likely need less routine maintenance, so poor maintenance isn't as likely to shorten a vehicle's life. Also I would assume a new motor would be a lot less expensive to buy and install than a new engine.

Extending the average life of vehicles would do a lot toward reducing their overall environmental cost.
True, routine maintenance would likely be less. Not sure how inexpensive replacing a motor would be and what else might be involved.
Lot's of Polly-anna daydreaming and speculation on EV technology and many "maybes" from Tesla. :rolleyes:

Without considering the other real costs of producing EV I've cited earlier, whatever other comes to fruition in EV, there is still a future for ICE. Anyone not considering the position of the oil company brokers and stock market barrons would be naive to think they will not maintain the market for oil.
What some fail to realize is that it is crude oil brokers and commercial interests that drive the oil market . .. not the oil companies as used to be the case. No matter what other technologies the oil companies appear to dapple in.

A lengthy diatribe isn't needed to look at how many other claims for other innovations have fallen flat.
EV surely won't wither away, but some just have agendas that encourage over stated, misleading and market driven hype for hopeful investors.
It may not be obvious. . . . but some are "sellers" even here and like to pedal rhetoric by the shovel full. (y)
 
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What some folks miss while they lecture other on is how many of the oil companies have been actively investing in chemicals, charging and renewable energy. They have been diversifying in new areas to take advantage of the new technologies. Also to replace some of the losses in the oil areas. Companies like Shell and BP have been leading the way.

They are not going to miss a beat by being active in all areas as they already have been.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
What some folks miss while they lecture other on is how many of the oil companies have been actively investing in chemicals, charging and renewable energy. They have been diversifying in new areas to take advantage of the new technologies. Also to replace some of the losses in the oil areas. Companies like Shell and BP have been leading the way.

They are not going to miss a beat by being active in all areas as they already have been.
It sort of depends on whether they want to be like Netflix or Blockbuster, adapt or die.
 

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It sort of depends on whether they want to be like Netflix or Blockbuster, adapt or die.
Exactly and large companies like this have the money to morph into other thing with ease and most have been diversifying for a while.

Same for GM and VW as they took the first major step to change and diversify their products to serve the present and future.

There are some automakers that will not survive. More will merge, partner and some will fail. Not all makers can afford to adapt.
 

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It sort of depends on whether they want to be like Netflix or Blockbuster, adapt or die.
Within the transportation industry, the focus is shifting towards new powertrains. There is a recognition that existing gas/diesel systems have to be supported to maintain revenue streams towards the future systems, but nobody thinks gas or diesel is going to be dominant by 2030.
 

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I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. A steam locomotive is a normal cycle Rankine engine. No battery electric vehicle is a Rankine cycle engine by any definition at all. There's no tie up in any way, shape, or form.
He’s saying most electricity comes from power plants that are steam driven turbines, so BEVs are steam powered through 1 degree of seperation.
 

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You can still with out a doubt use the electric motor for braking. Excess energy gets dumped off via a resistor bank aka heat. Done quite often in industrial settings.
 

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You can still with out a doubt use the electric motor for braking. Excess energy gets dumped off via a resistor bank aka heat. Done quite often in industrial settings.
Just to be clear, currently existing electric cars and trucks do not have resistor banks, and they do not regeneratively brake when the battery is full. If you search around a bit on Google you can even find various Tesla and Bolt owners who are surprised that their cars behave differently when at a completely full state of charge.

You suggestion does bring up an interesting point for the class 8 semi trucks that are out as demonstration fleets. In a semi, engine braking is not a 'nice to have' feature but an absolute requirement. I wonder if these trucks do have some alternative place to dissipate the energy in the case the battery is full. I don't know though. Typical engine brakes can absorb 500hp. If you put 500hp into a resistor all the way down a 4 or 5 mile long grade, that's an enormous amount of energy. It would need more than just passive air cooling.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
If you put 500hp into a resistor all the way down a 4 or 5 mile long grade, that's an enormous amount of energy. It would need more than just passive air cooling.
How is that different than ordinary friction based brakes other than the heat can be directed to a heat radiator?
 

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How is that different than ordinary friction based brakes other than the heat can be directed to a heat radiator?
It 's the same. If you attempt to drive a 40 ton truck down a long grade using just the foundation brakes, the brakes will overheat and stop working in short order. Then you can either take the truck runaway ramp, or you can attempt to set a new land speed record.

Conventional trucks solve this by using the engine brake. The engine brake puts the energy into air, which exits through the exhaust.

A BEV truck would put the energy into a battery. If the batteries are full, that energy needs to go someplace else.
 

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Most EV's don't allow regen braking until below 80% SoC, so as not to over charge the batteries. I think this is why Tesla recently removed the option to adjust regen braking from all their cars. Adding a dynamic braking feature to an electric semi should probably be mandatory, especially in cases where the truck needs to charge up frequently due to the severe lack of range. Hopefully none of the future Tesla Semi operators have a distribution center at high elevation, or the trucks aren't allowed to fully charge near the top of a mountain pass.
 

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Note to self . .
If I ever see a Tesla EV semi in my rear view mirror going down the steep, long grades in the Tennessee Smokey Mountains. . . . go faster or pull over and let 'em pass. LOL (y)
 

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Discussion Starter #79 (Edited)
As a result of this I've been looking through the various Ford configurations for F-150s and F-250s. It seems now Ford is doing two annoying things. First they're doing what all manufacturers do and make you buy X, Y and Z if you want A.

But they're also just not offering B if you want C. For example, you can't get the 36 gallon tank with either the 3.0 or the 3.5 hybrid. I can see that there could be technical reasons for that (weight and/or space). But on the lower end truck you can't get aluminum wheels with certain engine choices, even though they're offered in the same diameter. Or even something like the STX package is only available with certain engines. There are a surprising number of choices that go away if you want the 3.0.

Edit: I went through the Chevy and Ram sites too. The Ram site seems to be the least annoying forcing change on you and allowing choices. For example you can get the 3.0 with two or three tank size choices, depending on trim. The GM site your engine choices are really affected by trim level.
 

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Most EV's don't allow regen braking until below 80% SoC, so as not to over charge the batteries. I think this is why Tesla recently removed the option to adjust regen braking from all their cars. Adding a dynamic braking feature to an electric semi should probably be mandatory, especially in cases where the truck needs to charge up frequently due to the severe lack of range. Hopefully none of the future Tesla Semi operators have a distribution center at high elevation, or the trucks aren't allowed to fully charge near the top of a mountain pass.
I think the regen is much like a CVT transmission. It is for light use and mostly city driving in a small car. It is more assist than braking.

The Bolt I drove offered it but you have to shift to L to get it and that is more a city setting. It drove like a golf cart. It worked but you had to get a feel for it and use good judgment.

No one is going to get run over by a Tesla as they just removed the regen option. That is a sign they had issues as it is being claimed to being reworked or it may just disappear.

Regen works to a degree but it takes some judgment from the driver and too many drivers lack that ability. Also it has limits and I just don’t see towing braking as a major option.

The automakers are going to learn a lot here. Technology is able to do a lot but you still have to rely on the operator to apply it in many cases.

Some smart phones are not too smart in some hands vs others. Same applies here.

In the future regen and electronic brake by wire could be merged. Brake by wire is still pretty new so it may be a bit yet.
 
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